Comments on Nick's Twins Blog: Baseball's Crooked Playing Field

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2010-05-14T03:09:28.952-05:00

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夢世界,
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酒店打工,
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夢世界,

Just discovered your blog through Twinkie Town. I...

2009-11-29T23:18:49.521-06:00

Just discovered your blog through Twinkie Town.

I do agree with your post regarding the spending in baseball, and that was evident this year however, when push comes to shove, the baseball gods have been nice to small and big market teams as both are tied at five since 2000 in world series victories. In this equation, I consider the White Sox and Phillies small market clubs for the purpose that the teams have built home grown stars.

In the 1990's it was no different as the teams, that built their World Series winning ballclubs, did so with homegrown players. The only true exceptions were the Minnesota Twins who had Chili Davis sign for two years for the 1991 season at the urging of Kirby Puckett and Jack Morris who signed for the 1991 season and went down in baseball history as pitching that incredible game 7; the Atlanta Braves who signed Greg Maddox though that signing is understandable because the Cubs haven't won the World Series since 1908; and the 1997 Florida Marlins. Except for the Marlins, all teams mentioned had homegrown players

Nick, your blog is spot on. The Yankees, Red Sox, ...

2009-10-29T12:53:53.631-05:00

Nick, your blog is spot on. The Yankees, Red Sox, Mets and other big spenders have an undeniable, undebateable enormous competitive advantage. I have seen alot of arguments on this subject but it really comes down to one thing, stick a cap on MLB and the Yanks become obscure, they never would have been able to sign ONE big namer in the off season. Forcing the better players to sign else where and level this playing field. It does not matter that the Twins owner is super rich, he isnt gonna dump his own money into a market with out returns, that is just god-awful stupid and a sure fire path to bankruptcy. And does a 30 million dollar dispersement to a team mean anything? Not when the big namers command 180 MIL! Luxury tax isnt working. I leave with this question. What happens if you cap the MLB Teams Salaries at 120 Million?

As a lifelong Twins fan who used to hate the Yanke...

2009-10-19T22:34:28.293-05:00

As a lifelong Twins fan who used to hate the Yankees, I have to admit I've changed my thinking. Twins ownership puts most of their revenue in their pockets and crys "small market"! Yankee ownership puts most of their revenue into their team because winning is the only thing that matters. To the Pohlad's, making money is far more important than winning. I used to be a staunch defender of the Pohlads. I can't bring myself to do it anymore.

last I checked, the m-dome held over 60,000 but av...

2009-10-16T12:15:58.431-05:00

last I checked, the m-dome held over 60,000 but average attendance is 25,000. I guess you should blame the fans for not coming to the park to support their team. Lousy fans you have.

To anonomous,

If you checked your facts correctly, you would have calculated that of the 19 million people in the NY metro district only .19% of them attend each Yankee game (and yes I am aware that you have the Mets to, take them out and the numbers are still noticable different), while here in Minnesota roughly .7% of the metro district (3 million people) attend a Twins game.

Check your facts before you come over here and run your mouth. No one is whining about the Twins losing, we are basically saying that there is an inherant unfair economic structure in baseball that is killing americas former pastime.

Actually, the reason the Yankees won was because A...

2009-10-15T12:24:34.258-05:00

Actually, the reason the Yankees won was because A-Fraud finally had a good postseason series. The rest of the Yankees hit .198 as a team.

What hurts the most to me as a Twins fan is the Yanks, bloated payroll and all, didn't beat the Twins. They were ripe for the picking despite their advantages and the Twins couldn't take advantage. They beat themselves.

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You have to remember these are short series, making it even harder to see teams come together and have everything working at the same time. That's what got me about the whole A-Rod postseason thing. These series don't necessarily show a teams capabilities, that's why it's important to take advantage of mistakes. Something the Yankees did very well.

The "not intimidated" stance would be better if ev...

2009-10-15T00:30:15.868-05:00

The "not intimidated" stance would be better if even in 2006 (the best Twins team this decade) they didn't go only 3-3 vs. the Yanks including getting blown out in 2 of the 3 games at Yankee stadium in September (when the Twins were at the tail end of a historic run of great baseball).

It's payroll. It's talent. It's a bad match-up in terms of styles. And it's also in their heads. Rays & Angels have smaller payrolls but have fared much better vs. Yanks in recent years.

Go Twins!

The Yankees didn't get in the way of the Twins win...

2009-10-14T23:50:37.611-05:00

The Yankees didn't get in the way of the Twins winning, the Twins did.

Actually, the reason the Yankees won was because A-Fraud finally had a good postseason series. The rest of the Yankees hit .198 as a team.

What hurts the most to me as a Twins fan is the Yanks, bloated payroll and all, didn't beat the Twins. They were ripe for the picking despite their advantages and the Twins couldn't take advantage. They beat themselves.

"And a lineup filled with 20+ HR, 850+ OPS hitters...

2009-10-14T23:26:56.344-05:00

"And a lineup filled with 20+ HR, 850+ OPS hitters. And a dominant top two starting pitchers that they bought for $250M this offseason."
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But that's not why they lost. The Twins' starting pitching in games 2 and 3 matched that of the Yankees. Twins pitchers pretty much shut down that Yankee lineup. Good pitching beats good hitting, and the Twins had good pitching in those games. They failed to capitalize after putting themselves in position to win not because the Yankee players make a lot of money, but because they failed to play fundamental baseball. It also didn't help that one of the best closers in all of baseball, Joe Nathan(under a $47MM contract) couldn't seal the deal. The Yankees didn't get in the way of the Twins winning, the Twins did.

Seriously, I'm open to listening to the other side...

2009-10-14T23:17:26.006-05:00

Seriously, I'm open to listening to the other side of this argument, but you're not going to make any progress by completely ignoring blatantly obvious facts.

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Here's another "fact" for you. How about you take a look at the ages of these players in question. The Yankees have a number of guys with proven track records that acquired these large contracts because of their past successes. Especially the 4 remaining Yankees from the '96-'00 dynasty. Jeter(age:35; $21 million), Posada(38; $13 million), M. Rivera(39; $15 million), Pettitte(37; made $15 million last yr, $5.5 this yr). These guys make make up 1/4 of the Yankees payroll because George believed they earned it. I bet if Mauer stays on the Twins for 10-15 years he'd be making that same amount of money as well. They've got quite a few veterans on their team that are on their way out in a few years. Look for a younger team to emerge, something they've been doing a lot better is producing great young talent. Then hopefully you tools will stop this payroll whining.

The only advantages the Yankees had in the divisio...

2009-10-14T21:58:35.913-05:00

The only advantages the Yankees had in the division series were a fatigued Twins team in game 1, and the ability to play fundamental baseball.

And a lineup filled with 20+ HR, 850+ OPS hitters. And a dominant top two starting pitchers that they bought for $250M this offseason. The Twins' first two starters in that series had about two years of experience combined and made less than a million dollars between them this season.

Seriously, I'm open to listening to the other side of this argument, but you're not going to make any progress by completely ignoring blatantly obvious facts.

This comment section has been a bit maddening at times, but I do appreciate everyone's input. I'll have a follow-up on this post tomorrow, so check back if you'd like to continue the debate.

Does baseball need salary cap? Absoultely, but let...

2009-10-14T19:30:41.983-05:00

Does baseball need salary cap? Absoultely, but let's not talk about how the disaparity of salaries played a role in the Twins' awful postseason performance. The Twins screw themselves by playing awful fundamental baseball in this series.

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Sure you can institute a salary cap, but remember there has to be a floor too. And considering how many teams have a payroll well over $100 million, that would mean teams like the Twins, Marlins, Nationals etc. would HAVE to increase their payrolls dramatically. Remember...that's money your team supposedly 'doesn't' have..

Does baseball need salary cap? Absoultely, but let...

2009-10-14T18:57:34.134-05:00

Hey, good thing Bill Lindeke is here to set the re...

2009-10-14T18:49:22.244-05:00

Hey, good thing Bill Lindeke is here to set the record straight. You really nailed it, dude. The thing that's annoying here isn't the Yankees inflated payroll, it's that you people look at it and exaggerate/inflate the effects that it has on baseball. The Yankees haven't come close to winning a world series for 7 years, yet you still single them out and complain. I'm sorry that you are (obviously) bitter after a few rather dissapointing losses. I'm also sorry that your Twins don't know how to run the bases. Regardless of whatever spin you try to put on it, those baserunning fundamentals aren't bought for millions of dollars. They are professional baseball players, and are expected to play the game with an intelligence level greater than that of a 16 year old kid. The only advantages the Yankees had in the division series were a fatigued Twins team in game 1, and the ability to play fundamental baseball. There is no "obvious point" here, just a handful of disgruntled Twins fans that are digging up an old issue that was abandoned when it was realized that the Yankees' huge spending was hurting them more than anything else. I see plenty of competitiveness out there, and it's fairly common to see small market teams do well. People will keep their mouths shut when the Yankees lose, but when they win, it's always a "damn shame". Suck it up, people.

Yankees fans aren't blind to the financial imbalan...

2009-10-14T17:48:20.838-05:00

Yankees fans aren't blind to the financial imbalance. We just don't see it as a problem.

Do the Yankees have a better chance of winning year after year because of their payroll? Absolutely. But why exactly is that a bad thing?

From a business and philosophical standpoint, shouldn't society prefer that the team with 20 million fans win most of the time and the team with 1 million fans win some of the time than the other way around?

Nick... I'm a long-time reader of your blog. I fai...

2009-10-14T16:03:16.771-05:00

Nick... I'm a long-time reader of your blog. I fail to understand why people aren't getting your rather obvious point. I suppose the ideology of fandom is that owners are philanthropists, paying players out of personal or civic pride.

The fact is that, unlike other pro sports, baseball has a very imbalanced financial landscape. The reason Yankees fans are so annoying is that they (willfully) blind themselves to this fact.

We all see what we want to see, but the massive payroll discrepancies in baseball are a crying shame. The vast majority of teams have no real shot at winning in the playoffs most years. The fact that baseball still manages to keep a semblance of competitiveness is a testament to the inherent strength and beauty of the game.

(Incidentally. the same argument about inequality would hold true for the Mets or Cubs even though they're consistently mediocre. If all the big-market teams had decent management, baseball's uneven playing field would be truly intolerable, condemning Pittsburgh, K.C., Baltimore, and the rest to lifetimes of baseball purgatory.)

So essentially, that is what has given the Yankees...

2009-10-14T14:42:06.743-05:00

So essentially, that is what has given the Yankees a huge advantage over all of baseball, but it's also the problem with how they're ran. Hmmm...

That's not the problem with how they're run. Having money doesn't guarantee that it is going to be spent well. The Yankees have misfired on several contracts over the past several years, but that doesn't mean being able to sign those top free agents -- and then not be financially crippled when the contracts don't work out -- isn't a big advantage.

That is far more of an indictment of the way the Y...

2009-10-14T13:50:42.497-05:00

That is far more of an indictment of the way the Yankees have been run than any sort of evidence against the basic truth that their dramatic payroll edge provides them with a distinct advantage.
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Once again, this is your opinion, not basic truth. The Yankees had a more distinct advantage when they had a better TEAM, from 1996-2000. I think 3 championships in 4 years provides sufficient evidence for that. So where's the evidence for this huge advantage since then? You're so sure there is one, so please explain. Regarding how the Yankees have been "run" the last 7-8 years, I think I can probably use your words to describe this. "the Yankees are able to retain any player they want to/the Yankees are able to flex their financial muscles by plucking prospects whose signing bonus demands put lower-payroll teams out of the picture and by throwing heaps of cash at all the top international talent." So essentially, that is what has given the Yankees a huge advantage over all of baseball, but it's also the problem with how they're ran. Hmmm...

The beauty of baseball is that the very best teams...

2009-10-14T11:36:25.067-05:00

The beauty of baseball is that the very best teams (regardless of payroll) end up playing .630 ball, and they end up playing a bunch of .530 - .600 teams in the playoffs. Unlike the NBA or the NFL, the best teams don't make it to the championship series every year simply because their advantage of the other teams in the playoffs is marginal, and baseball is a game of funny bounces.

Yankees / Twins was hardly a walkover, and it ultimately came down to the Twins making Little League baserunning mistakes and their $11 million closer spitting the bit. Yes, the Yankees had a better team top to bottom and a larger margin for error, but just by the nature of baseball the lesser team had a legitimate chance to win.

In the big picture, MLB wants NY, Boston, LA, etc. to have the very best teams. Successful teams in the largest, most affluent markets = maximum ticketing, concessions, merchandising, TV, and radio revenue + greater global branding opportunities. Common business sense says you probably want 20 million happy fans in New York than 1 million in Kansas City.

But for those niche markets, devise the "AL Central" and "NL Central" where you let a less talented team with a worse record into the playoffs every year. That way, every fan can dream every spring.

But make sure you institute a "Wild Card" so that you get an extra large market team into the playoffs every year while giving niche market teams another hope to grab onto.

The only way to guarantee that this works and to maximize MLB revenues is to make sure you DON'T have a salary cap. What's wrong with that?

I am saying that since the Yankees have had a size...

2009-10-14T10:16:36.603-05:00

I am saying that since the Yankees have had a sizeable payroll advantage over all of baseball, they have not won a world series, and have been continually knocked out by teams that are far inferior to them (by your standards, not mine).

That is far more of an indictment of the way the Yankees have been run than any sort of evidence against the basic truth that their dramatic payroll edge provides them with a distinct advantage.

I am saying that since the Yankees have had a size...

2009-10-13T23:33:48.698-05:00

I am saying that since the Yankees have had a sizeable payroll advantage over all of baseball, they have not won a world series, and have been continually knocked out by teams that are far inferior to them (by your standards, not mine). Sure, the Yankees have probably looked like the best team on paper every year since 2001, but clearly they haven't had what it takes. This is why they still play the games. I'm not denying that there is a (monetary) advantage, but you seem to be exaggerating the size of this advantage and the effects that it has had. There are two sides to this coin, whether you want to agree or not. Your argument is not common sense, it is entirely subjective. I can't predict the future, and I don't know what the Yankees will do this year, next year, and so on. But based on what I know right now, I stand by my argument.

I apologize, that last comment was way too long.

2009-10-13T23:11:36.965-05:00

I apologize, that last comment was way too long.

I can't agree more with Matt P. Maybe being connec...

2009-10-13T23:07:05.232-05:00

I can't agree more with Matt P. Maybe being connected to ESPN is not going to be a benefit for this blog (unless you are making money on ad revenue), because if I wanted to read stupid pissing contests between overly sensitive fans, I could go to many other places...perhaps this will be a one time occurrence.

As for the discussion...
1) I think forcing all new players go through the same annual draft is a no-brainer. This doesn't solve the problem you point out, but no-brainers rarely do.
2) Bringing up individual exceptions to the point that money underlies success misses the point. Sure the Yankees don't win every year, sure the Marlins have one WS with a small payroll and of course the biggest point, all the money the Mets have thrown at players hasn't brought them a WS title.

Outside of those individual examples, it is difficult not to notice that those teams that make the playoffs tend to be the higher spending teams. Which really shouldn't be all that controversial a claim, since of course the amount of money a teams spends has a big effect on how successful they are, to deny it would be to deny a basic underpinning of a capitalist system, that on average things are worth what you pay for them. If spending more money wasn't likely to yield good results, people probably wouldn't do it (on average).

3) In general I think there are two things for the league and fans to consider:
i) What is best for the league…what will maximize baseballs popularity and revenue? I don’t think things are improved by making it a perfectly flat playing field where random chance seems to dictate the eventual winners and losers (I know this is unrealistic, but how far should we stay away from this). For instance, I am not sure the NFL is improved by the apparent ability of mediocre teams to make the playoffs, because there is so much equality.
ii) How much of their revenue to teams owe to the existence of other teams? If every team besides the Cubs were to fold, then the Cubs could win the World Series every year (by default), but I doubt they would attract many fans. Perhaps baseball should explore how much the team / league should collect for the TV / radio rights for games (for instance, I believe most if not all TV rights for baseball games belong to the individual teams, while in the NFL they belong to the league and in College Football they belong to the conference and the NCAAA, besides Notre Dame who weaseled out of that on a technicality, namely that they aren’t in a conference).

4) For the sake of playing the devils advocate, it seems Nick that you are complaining that the current situation should be changed, so that fans in smaller/cheaper markets who want to cheer for a winner can. But you could route for a winner (not a local one) and if you wanted to route for a local one, you could move to someplace that has an expensive team to route for. I know it would be nice to have that while living in Minnesota, but, hey I wish I could live in MN, route for the Twins and gophers (hockey, that is) and enjoy the generally nice demeanor of the population, but I can’t handle the winters or the summers, so I had to make a choice. I moved to the west coast, where I don’t care about the teams and the people aren’t as friendly.

5) One thing I love (loved?) about New York and New Yorkers in particular is that they don’t care about what the rest of the country thinks about them. I lived in the Midwest and people complained about how the people on the coasts looked down on them, I live on the west coast where people are always justifying themselves by claming the east coast is too hostile or formal and my friends on Boston complain about NY, but the people in NY don’t seem to care what the rest of the country is doing or thinks about them, so I can only conclude that the Yankee fans here are probably not from NY, because no self respecting NYer would waste their time on a podunk blog from the flyover portion of the country.

Anyway, unless you have connections directly to Mr...

2009-10-13T22:26:02.549-05:00

Anyway, unless you have connections directly to Mr. Selig than what are the point of these blogs. There's already hundreds of them out there. All it does is anger Yankee fans and divide us as fans of the game even more. Nobody will ever convince me into being anything other than a Yankee fan no matter how much hatred there is.

When I write that the Twins shouldn't sign a player, I don't do so with the idea that the Twins front office will read it and heed my advice. I write these things to open a conversation, and the conversation about baseball's uneven playing field is one that needs to be had.

No, the only example you're using is the Yankees just like everyone else. Boston won 2 WS in the past 5 years, I don't hear people crying about their Payroll.

I used the Yankees as an example because they just swept the Twins out of the playoffs. My feelings on this issue apply to the Mets, the Red Sox, the Dodgers and any other big-market team whose payroll towers over the majority of other teams in the league.

Nick- I did as you asked and read through your blog and all comments. Being a Yankee fan, I used to hear your argument all the time at the beginning of the decade. It's old. I have the strangest feeling that you are just extremely upset after seeing your Twins lose 3 straight after looking so promising the last few weeks of the season.

I respect your take, but it's just not correct. I considered the Twins' season a success after they won the division and had no illusions of them getting past the Yankees. It was a frustrating series, but the results were expected. I just figured it was an appropriate time to bring up this topic, which has bothered me for some time, and not just because it's unfair to the Twins but because it is unfair for all low-revenue teams who can't spend anywhere close to the level of teams like the Yankees and Red Sox.

The rest of your comment is seemingly an attempt to prove that the Yankees' unlimited cash doesn't actually give them a meaningful advantage, but with all due respect, that's hogwash. A correlative analysis is not necessary here; this is common sense. The Yankees can use their financial advantage to sign marquis free agents, retain any players they want to, draft players whose contract demands push them out of other teams' price ranges, and outbid other teams on international talent.

Whether not the Yankees have been putting their deep funds to good use and turning their financial advantage into division titles and World Series championships is another matter, but there is absolutely zero doubt that having a payroll that is more then three times larger than the average team provides with with a sizable inherent advantage. And that just is not fair. Period.

Nick- I did as you asked and read through your blo...

2009-10-13T22:09:05.391-05:00

Nick- I did as you asked and read through your blog and all comments. Being a Yankee fan, I used to hear your argument all the time at the beginning of the decade. It's old. I have the strangest feeling that you are just extremely upset after seeing your Twins lose 3 straight after looking so promising the last few weeks of the season. Understandable. You mentioned some trend in which all of the high payroll teams are consistently better than the low payroll teams. Since you singled out the Yankees as your prime example, I will too. As you know, the Yankees haven't won a world series since 2000. That would be 8 seasons in which they have been discarded by better teams in the playoffs. Payroll wise, the Yankees didn't start having a ridiculous "advantage" until after they started coming up short year after year. I'm not gonna start throwing numbers out there, don't really feel like it. But I will say that in 1998, that Yankees team was/is regarded as one of the best teams of all time, based on their regular season standings and postseason performance. They had the second highest payroll that year, right behind the Orioles, who finished 4th in the division with a losing record. From 1996-2000, the Yankees won, and they won because they had great, well rounded teams with great chemistry. They didn't win because of an inflated payroll. I've been a Yankee fan since 1993 and the trend I am seeing and the trend you are seeing are not the same.